Episode 35: Why You Should Join A Community Bank – Featuring Candace Wiest

Michelle: Welcome to the “InFLOW” podcast. I’m your host, Michelle Bosch. Today I have a pioneer from the banking industry as my guest. I say pioneer because she has experienced many firsts in her career. In addition to being the first CEO of her bank in 2003, she was elected by the community bankers in the Western district of the San Francisco Federal Reserve to become the first woman to serve as a Class A director in the bank’s 100-year history. She was reelected for a second term and her term span both in the…during Greenspan and the Bernanke administration while at the San Francisco Federal Reserve, she has served as the chair of the public affairs committee, member of the audit committee and she was also the first female chairman of the California independent bankers.

My guest today is Candace Wiest. She is a founding president and CEO of West Valley Bancorp, Inc. and West Valley National Bank. The bank opened its doors on December 23rd of 2006 and survived the great recession while many others in Arizona did not. The bank serves small businesses, professionals, physicians and dentists with branches in Goodyear, Gila Bend and Scottsdale, Arizona and she currently…the bank has also an SBA group in Orange County and in the process of opening a loan production office in Riverside, California. Welcome, Candace, to the “InFLOW” podcast. Thank you so much for being with me here today. It is an honor to have you.

Candace: Thank you, Michelle. My pleasure to be here and I’m happy to tell you we also opened a new branch in Las Vegas about six months ago, so now we’re in three states. We’re pretty excited.

Michelle: Wow. Yeah. So just for our listeners, I just wanted to mention that I met Candace a couple years ago in her office after a friend from our ultimate war room had made a connection. And Jack and I had an appointment with you and I remember you were coming back from speaking at a local event here in Phoenix because I know you’re very active here in the community. And back then we were looking and had been in the process of meeting with several smaller banks prior to meeting you because we were looking for a good solid community bank that we could create a true relationship with. We were tired of being a number in large banks such as Bank of America, Wells Fargo.

So I remember my friend making the introduction, you know, before meeting you there in person. And what really got my attention was that Candace, you immediately reached out to both Jack and I. And I was just so impressed that the CEO of a bank actually cared enough to personally follow up on that introduction because that had not been our experience with prior banks for sure.

So fast forward now two years later and we now bank with West Valley National Bank, with your bank. We have gotten to know personally everyone that we interact with there at the bank and you and your team have been really instrumental in us being able to capitalize in business opportunities in the real estate space, specifically in our large apartments acquisition. So thank you for that. So let me ask Candace, let me start asking you, why do you believe so much in community banking? Why should a small business owner consider a community bank over one of the large banks?

Candace: Well, I think you touched on the big point, Michelle, which is I meet every single customer that we’re gonna do a loan for. I meet, I view every single site and I do it in three states and I do that because this is a relationship bank and I think that’s the difference. They’re not…people aren’t numbers to us. They’re their friends, they’re clients, they’re people that we help reach their dreams. I had an experience early on in my career, we’re gonna talk about this later, but I was a single mom in the ’70s and in those days, women didn’t have their own credit. So your credit was your husband’s. And finally…I had a terrible car. Finally I got a tax refund and I went into a community bank in Nebraska and I asked this guy if I…he asked how he could help. I said, ”I need a car loan.” He said, ”How is your credit?” I said, ”I don’t have any. My husband left a few years ago.” And he said, ”Well, tell me about you. Where do you work? What kind of car are you gonna buy?” All that kind of stuff. And he said, ”Okay, I’ll take the info and I’ll call you in a day or so.” So I said, ”Okay.” And two hours later he called up and he said, ”You know, you seem…I talked to your boss. He said, you’re a good girl. You work hard and I’m gonna take a chance on you and give you this loan even though you don’t have any credit history.”

And so the next day I was driving the kids to school and no, we weren’t late. The car started and everybody was less stressed and I got to work on time and I was so happy and I couldn’t help but think, “Geez, that guy changed my life,” you know, just by saying yes. And that’s when I really knew I wanted to be a banker in a community bank. And that was 38 years ago now. So it’s crazy.

Michelle: Yeah. Single decision from someone completely transformational for you in your life. Now, what do you think is the perceived drawback in the business community to working with a smaller community bank and what would you say to a business owner to dispel that perception?

Candace: First of all, really what’s important to you. So people think we don’t have all the bells and whistles that the big banks do. We do, we have remote deposit capture. You can take a picture of your checks. You know, we approve you for all that. We have virtually the same products. The difference is, and this is another great story I love to tell about my bank. On a Friday night, our customer calls me and says, it’s like 7:30 and he says, ”Hey, I need my debit card raised.” And I said, ”Ooh, I’m not sure how to do that. They don’t let me touch that stuff, but I know who to call.” So I called our ops person. She was driving up on the 101 going home. She pulled over, she called this guy, she was able to turn around and get his debit card increased just instantly.

So the difference for us is we’re relationship bankers. We don’t like just transactions. We really like to get to know our clients. We really like to figure out what is a good solution. And the one thing we talk about a lot here is the answer isn’t no. The answer is here’s what yes would look like. So, and there’s a guy in town and…tall, smiley. He used to tell everybody this story. I helped him get into business and he told me that, you know, she’s the first person who explained the five C’s of credit and taught me how the banks have to look at things. So I think the lack of millions of branches for a business, that’s not the end of the world because quite frankly, most of our clients don’t even come in. I mean, we go to them if we need to. We have technology that allows them to touch us whenever they need something. And, you know, we have a lot of our people that have been here a long time, so we’re really proud of that. So I think that’s the difference.

Michelle: Yeah, you’re right. Absolutely it is that personal touch and that getting to know each other. Absolutely. Now, you just mentioned about the five C’s of credit. And if someone is looking out there to get credit and look into credit as a business owner to help them expand their business, from your point of view as a banker, what are some things that a business owner should consider before approaching a bank like yours?

Candace: I think is, the number one thing is capacity. You know, are you taking on something that you have the capacity to support over a long period of time? So for example, when we look at a real estate loan, we shock test it and we say what if rents go down. What if there’s a recession and you have vacancies, you know, do you have the capacity to and resources to support this project. We look at credit scores. I mean, it’s still one of the big deals out there and it’s so easy to manage it now compared to in the past. I mean, you can sign and get in there and figure out immediately what your score looks like if there’s something on there that shouldn’t be. We look at the collateral, I mean is that…are we in this in a really good place and, you know, where there’s a loan to value where we can justify it to our shareholders and the examiners.

And we also look at willingness. So recently, we had a loan that we were looking at and the capacity was pretty good, wasn’t great. It was pretty good. The collateral looked okay, but then when we shock…it, it didn’t look okay and we looked at it and said, “Okay, how has this person performed in the past to their obligations?” Because most people are who they are and a lot of people, if you get into a corner, people behave differently. And so those are the things we look at and just say, “Do you have the capacity to support this if something goes wrong?” And I think that’s valuable and it’s a really good way for our clients to look at things before they make investments. You know, what if’s.

Michelle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, switching things a little bit, I know Candace said, your career path has been…you call it unconventional in that at 17 you got married, you had three children, and by age 21 just when your youngest was a few weeks old, you became the sole provider. Tell me your story. What happened? How did you find yourself in that situation?

Candace: Well, I could say stupidity to start, but I got pregnant at 17, had my first one when I was 18 by 3 months. And then I had two more by the time I was 21 and my husband just left. So I started out as a waitress and then I pretty soon, I was managing restaurants and then pretty soon I decided I needed to be home for the girls because they were starting to be preteens and they were pretty. And I was worried I’d need an armed guard if I didn’t stay home more. And so I actually then went to an insurance agency and told them I could type and that led to opportunities. Every time they said, “Do you know how to do something?” I said I could do it and I would work the extra hours.

So within a few years I was actually managing the agency. And then a bank-owned insurance agency across the street, I heard they were hiring. I thought I’d have a better opportunity and they hired me and then they told me they were going to sell it if it never made money, if I didn’t turn it around in six months. And so luckily, it was an easy business problem. Their business lines, the contracts that they had with the insurers didn’t match their client base. So I drove to Mason City, Iowa and I just said, ”I need a contract.” And the guy at Kemper said, ”We’re not giving any out.” I said, ”You’re gonna give it to me because I’m gonna keep coming back until you do. I can’t go home without this.” And so he said, ”Okay.” And then I turned it around and then the president of holding company made me the sales manager for the whole holding company. And then in the ’80s, he got a job, opening a new bank here in Arizona.

So I put my kids in a truck and we left Nebraska and we drove to Arizona and found ourselves in Scottsdale just in time for the S&L crash. This new bank had only been open like seven or eight months. And I was typing loan docs there and just trying to figure out what the lending platform looked like. And the guy that hired me basically resigned in the middle of an FDIC exam, and the new guy was the guy who had approved a lot of the problem loans. And so he sent me, I’d been in banking seven or eight months and a new guy that had been there for probably four days into talk to the FDIC. And we got the snot beat out of us first few days, but it was really great. It taught me a lot of what not to do.

And so ultimately, I did workouts, problem loans here and then I left that bank for an opportunity in Southern California. And I started all over again, put the kids in a truck again and wound up in Riverside, California. And I thought, “This will be much better and not so crazy as Arizona was.” And then I found out I had just entered into a bank where they were on their fourth president in like three years and then he was gone like six months later. So then they bring in a guy that did a bunch of really goofy loans. In the meantime, I’m doing workouts, I’m a branch manager and I get promoted to chief credit officer. Now they fire number five. And they say to me, ”Do you wanna throw your hat in the ring?” And I said, ”You guys have not seen Jesus yet, so I think you’re part of the problem. And I’m just…I’m gonna sit here, thanks, but I’ll still be here.” So sure enough, they hired a guy who actually drank in the bathroom, if you can imagine.

Michelle: Oh my goodness.

Candace: So I said, ”Okay, I know that…I’m gonna take it because you guys are just gonna really mess this up. The next guy will be worse.” So we had approximately 250% of our capital in problem loans and most banks die when you get over 100% of your capital. It was a simple problem. And so they fired him, number six, on Wednesday, they named me as the CEO on Thursday. I hired a chief credit officer on Friday and we worked all weekend and the examiners came in on Monday. And I said, ”I know we’ve got problems. I know you didn’t expect to see me in this beat. But I’ve got a plan. I think it’s a good one. If you guys will work with me, I think I can pull this off.”

And so the guy basically said, ”Look, she’s always done what she said she would do. So we’re gonna let her go, but we are gonna watch her.” And so when 66% of the banks in Southern California were under an order, we weren’t, and we should have been quite frankly. But I was able to sell off the problems and took me about nine months. I had to lay off half of my team and I knew them all. I knew their kids, their husbands, and so it was not an easy time for sure.

Michelle: Yeah. In those moments of difficulty, just really difficult situations, what do you consider was your superpower, and does that continue to be your superpower now?

Candace: I was really…I had met my husband when I went over there and we were married in 1993 about the time…and I was named president. And no, we were married in ’94, we were engaged in ’93 and then that’s when I became the CEO. And what I knew about myself was I would reach out to people and ask people who I respected, “What should I do? What’s your thought about this? What have you done when you’ve been in this kind of situation?” The other thing is I think I was just so darn focused. I mean, and I gave it a lot. I really did. I mean, at the same time my mother was dying of cancer. My daughter had just had a new baby and she wasn’t married. So now I’ve got a baby in the house, but I have a lot of faith.

I believe that when you are in those tight spots, that that old line about giving to God, you know, don’t worry about anything, pray about everything. And I did a lot of that and I just didn’t allow myself to listen to the naysayers. And I had a lot of stuff going on. I had a chairman that we had unseated because he didn’t think he had to pay a loan back. And he went after me at the shareholders meeting. He brought a bunch of his friends in there and they said a lot of horrible things about me. And I had to sit there like the Queen of England and just stay on track and say, ”This is our plan and we’re working this plan. The examiners are on board with this.” And after two hours of peppering, finally, our attorney got up and said, ”She is, you know, she’s suing him and it’s public knowledge. So if you’re shareholders, you ought to be congratulating her for doing what is right.” So that took the air out of the balloon. I walked out of the building, I sailed out like the Queen of England and I got in my car and I cried all the way home and I called my sister and I cried more.

And then my husband always said I had a few phases. The first is I would cry and the next morning I would get up and something was gonna die, but it wouldn’t be me. And I put on red lipstick and go to work. And that was that day, I got up and I was still kind of sad the next day. So I slither into my office and they’re on my desk is a stuffed buzzard that my team had put on there. And he had his chin resting on a bottle of Pepto-Bismol and the note said, “The buzzards may be circling, but you’ve got the stomach for it.” And so I was inspired by that. I knew these guys counted on me and I didn’t let them down. I’m pretty proud of that.

Michelle: Beautiful. Oh my goodness. So I had to write notes. I’m like, willingness to ask for help, is one of the super powers, your ability to focus your faith and resilience and just perseverance in the face of all kinds of things that might be going wrong. I know you joined your first bank in 1986 as a loan clerk and now 26 years later, you know, you’re celebrating, I believe the 26th anniversary as a bank CEO, your 33rd anniversary as a banker. So you’ve been in banking for quite some time. What was it like back then when you started to be a woman in the banking industry and what has changed?

Candace: Well, I think, you know, I worked hard, I’m not going to underplay that, but I also think the world was ready, the banking world was ready for women. And for me, I remember, gosh, that bank in California, there was a guy who sat in the…we were in the bullpen together and he was so awful to the ladies, you know, in the office and stuff. And one day he said to me, ”Hey, the guys, the boys are gonna kick me upstairs so you might wanna pay attention to me so you could learn from me.” And I looked at him and I said, ”The only thing you could teach me is bad habits.” And so, there was a guy like that, there was another guy, the same bank who said he didn’t like lady loan officers, so he wouldn’t promote me. And ultimately he had to, fate stepped in. I got my shot, the boards said, ”Why aren’t we using her all the time? This is the best analysis we’ve ever seen.” So there were those guys, but for every one of those kind of guys, there were at least five really gracious bankers, men that helped me in so many ways. I mean, they were resources for me.

And I had a friend who had been really great to me and, you know, when I took over I said, “Here’s what I think needs to be happening.” And he said, “Here are other things you might think about.” So the industry was ready. I mean, my timing was really great. It’s interesting to me though, that the ratio of female presidents in banking hasn’t really grown significantly. And I think part of that is the banks have shrunk, a lot have consolidated.

When I started, there were 16,000 community banks in this country. I think right now there’s 6,000. So I think that’s part of it. I also think women feel empowered to make career changes that, you know, if you’ve got a young family, you know, when I started you had to put in the same hours as the guys. It didn’t matter if you [inaudible 00:20:29] kids at home. And now I think women have choices and I think the fact that women are on more boards now and you’re seeing it and it’s not necessarily women bringing up other women, and I’ll be very honest, early on in my career, women were harder on each other than men were in the banking world.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think that is something that has possibly changed, at least in my experience within the real estate industry. But I know that there is this untold knowing that it wasn’t like that before, so yeah.

Candace: Well, I think there were so few jobs for women back then that they basically, you didn’t want to get too close to anyone. I didn’t have girlfriends ’til I was almost 50 because you kind of just, well, first of all, we’re all busy with our families and stuff, you know, when we weren’t working. But you didn’t wanna get too close in case, you know, if you were in the same business environment, sooner or later it might come down to you or her. So at 50…it’s stupid. And I have these super power girlfriends. I mean, and that’s when I really started getting involved in the community and we lifted each other up.

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. And collaboration gets you faster, further or further faster, I should say. You mentioned that you came in at a right time and that probably was part of what helped you succeed within the banking industry. Outside of the industry in general for women, entrepreneurial women, we feel like, or I feel at least like there is a lot of opportunity out there, but our courage hasn’t caught up with the opportunity. Would you think that’s a fair statement?

Candace: Oh, I think that’s absolutely a fair statement. Yeah, absolutely. I think there is an opportunity for women and women do…we’re more conservative. We think about more things. My husband scared the heck out of me most of our life. He’d say, ”I think you oughta buy this rental house in your 401K.” And I’d say, ”Oh no.” You know, and then I’d look at it and I’d say, “Well, okay, what’s the worst that can happen?” And I think that’s what women should do. Instead of saying, “Oh, I don’t know, the timing might not be right,” ask yourself, because this is how men think. And honestly, that’s how I learned to think in banking. What’s the worst case scenario? And then if you can live through that, then, you know, be brave. And I think that’s, by the way, I think that that’s changing too.

So I became a grandmother in my 30s. And so I have a 29-year-old granddaughter. We have a family-owned business that my husband started with my son-in-law and now Megan is the third generation in there. And she is very entrepreneurial. We said to her, ”What college you’re gonna go?” We tried a bunch of them. And finally my husband said to her, ”But you’re just gonna go to work in the construction business.” She said, “Great, because I want to be an entrepreneur.” So I think it’s changing with her generation, which is great.

Michelle: Do you see right now, in your experience, do you have a lot more entrepreneurial women looking for banking relationships and trying to leverage those relationships to help their businesses grow?

Candace: I do. It’s interesting. I see them in non-conventional fields and stuff. Yeah, and I think that, and I’ll give you one great example. There’s a lady named Beth Stubbola [SP], and when the cannabis industry really started coming to the forefront, Beth was on the forefront at that. And I you think about that, she’s got a family, I think she has four or five kids or something and she jumped into this industry and she’s been a rock star. So I’m seeing it in all across the board, more and more women and yeah, I think it’s good.

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely.

Candace: I think women bring a lot of different qualities than men do. I’m not saying one’s better than the other. Men tend to think black and white. Women also think about things like culture, I think more than some men do and how important that is and relationship, you know?

Michelle: Yeah, I totally see it. You know, just from working together with Jack, I’m all about values, corporate culture. And as a CFO for many years, I do need to look at things black and white sometimes, but I am much more interested in not just a result, but interested in if a result wasn’t accomplished, I really do care of what happened in that team member’s life and how can I help them, how can I support him because I consider them family. So yeah, I think this is…

Candace: [inaudible 00:25:09] you’re right.

Michelle: …something more from the woman’s perspective. Absolutely. Now I know that you’re a big believer of, of community commitment, especially as a community banker. You serve as director and part of the leadership of many organizations here in Phoenix, the Greater Phoenix Leadership, the Arizona Bankers Association, the 100 Club, Cancer Treatment Center, Delta Dental, American Heart Association.

I mean, you’ve been named also, you’ve had so many recognitions. I was like blown away really as I was reading 100 Women to Watch Nationally by “BusinessWomen,” “Forbes,” Women Leaders of the West, 50 Most Influential Women in Arizona by the “Arizona Business Magazine,” Most Admired CEOs by the “Phoenix Business Journal.” You’ve been the recipient of a Stevie award for best executive and that’s amongst many, many other recognitions. Personally though, what has your involvement in these organizations brought to your life that was unexpected, especially in helping you find a larger purpose within what you do?

Candace: Some of the ones that I’ve been involved in mean more personally to me. I think cancer treatment centers, I joined at, at a time when my grandson who was 12, was diagnosed with a brain tumor about the same time. And so, and I think, you know, it’s such a hideous disease that that was really important to me. And it was a love of that organization and the way they treat people. And so that one was a, you know, I really look for things that I say, “Does it matter what I’m doing? Does it matter? Am I actively involved? I don’t need to put things on a resume anymore. Am I gonna enjoy it? Are they gonna get value from me being there?” And so actually I’ve gotten on a couple, where it’s just, they just want your name on the thing and I don’t do that. I like to know that I’m spending my time with something that matters. Otherwise, I might as well be with my family or at the bank.

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Now, Candace this podcast in large part is about bridging the inner world and outer world to live a life of prosperity. It is also a call for courage to step into our higher purpose and work and create wealth. And my outer vehicle for wealth is real estate, but in order to be successful, and I mean like whole life success, there are key foundational habits. What do you do on a consistent basis to make sure that there’s always inflows of ease and grace come into your life?

Candace: Well, I was thinking about this when I was driving in today. I do something that you do. Every New Year’s, I write down my goals for what I expect to see come into my life over the next year. And I really…two years ago I was really touched with one of yours, Michelle, where you talked about unexpected blessings, the year of…unexpected blessings. So I think about that a lot now too because I think before then I didn’t even count on that. And it was interesting and amazing how when you visualize something, and I talk to God, in the morning, I do two things. I read something that’s uplifting, inspirational. And then I look at a…I like Joel Osteen, I’m Catholic. So I look at some of those sites and remember to…

Michelle: I love Joel. I love Joel. I was even there when he was here in Phoenix back in February. I brought I, you know, I brought Jack and Sophia because Sophia loves them too. My daughter, she’s 11 years old, but on our way to school we’re always listening to Joel. Yeah.

Candace: I know. I like him a lot. My line is, it’s great to get people ready for the hereafter, but most people have to get through next Tuesday. And so I think he teaches you how to do that. So I believe a lot. I mean, one of my favorite prayers is as I’m driving in, show me the way God, just show me today where you want me to be and how you want me to be. And that’s been really great. And I believe that…this last year I lost my husband. And I just, you know, I had a really difficult time. We were friends, we’d been together for, we were married 24, we had been friends for 28 years total. And I just was so lost. And finally, I took a trip with my granddaughter, a river trip and she was very close. We each, my husband and I each had three kids when we got married. And then we helped raise a granddaughter and Ray always called her number seven. So, and we traveled a lot with her. And when I see you with Sophia, I think about that. And so we, you know, I said to her, we’re going to take this great trip and we’re gonna, you know, see places Grandpa lived and we’re gonna enjoy each other.

And then while I was in Paris, I realized one of the things that I had kinda discounted, and I thought about it a lot, and we were in this jewelry store and I saw a bracelet that said, “Love” on it. And so I said to Megan, “I’m gonna put this on and hope that this brings me love, that grandpa wasn’t my last love.” And so, it’s very funny. And, you know, about a month ago I met a guy and he’s really pretty terrific and I kind of thought my life was over last year and it isn’t. So I think if you visualize it and you pray about it and you tell God your plan, not mine, and you accept that, I think it works.

Michelle: Oh my God, Candace that brings so much like, you know, joy to my heart. I’m like so happy to hear that you have, you know, met someone that’s amazing. Yes.

Candace: He’s pretty perfect, so yeah.

Michelle: That’s amazing. Now, you have been in banking leading in your industry, in your family, all of your life. What are the top pieces of advice that you have for women to start leading in their whole life and stop doubting themselves when creating material and spiritual wealth for themselves and their families?

Candace: Well, I think the first thing is I really didn’t have a lot of self-confidence. I mean, here I am, I have a high school diploma. One of the guys that I worked for that actually moved me out to Arizona was…he had a visioning session and he said, “In your first, be specific,” so I heard myself say, I always say this was an out-of-body experience. I heard myself say that I wanted to live somewhere warm. I wanted a red Mercedes convertible. I wanted a house for my kids and I wanted to be comfortable, wealthy, and I was none of those things. And when I looked around the room though, I looked at the people and I thought, my God, they’re all gonna laugh. And I put my head down and it was really quiet. And then the president started clapping and everybody else started and I thought, my God, they actually think I can do this.

So I set a 10-year-goal to become a CEO. And I think when women…don’t play those tapes that say, “You can’t do it, you’re not smart enough,” blah, blah, blah. Okay, what you need to do is just say, “Why not me? Why not me?” And then set your plan together and work the plan and believe in yourself. You believe in your kid, you believe in your husband, you believe in your boss, maybe believe in yourself first, you know, and put a plan together.

Michelle: So if that was number one right, was to go ahead and don’t doubt yourself. Don’t play the negativity tapes and ask yourself, why not me? What would be another piece of advice?

Candace: I think, you know, don’t be afraid to ask questions, you know, don’t be afraid. People today, I think, are very open about things and there are a lot of resources. So just be prepared. I always knew that as a pretty woman, if I was going out on a client, you know, to see them, I would get in the door before a guy. But I also knew if I didn’t have my act together, I’d be kicked out faster. So be prepared, you know, just know your audience and there you go. I think the world’s waiting for more women.

Michelle: Absolutely. Absolutely. Where could people find out more about you, Candace? Especially if someone is listening and they’re here local in the Phoenix area, you know, and they’re a business owner or business woman, where can they connect? How can they connect with you, check out the bank, establish a relationship and move forward?

Candace: Okay. So this is one of the differences of a community bank. My phone number is 623-229-8415 and I answer my own phone and would be very happy to answer questions or whatever you might need. And then the other thing is my email is cwiest@wvnb.net.

Michelle: Awesome. Thank you so much, Candace. Part of my end goals are not really material things, but actually feelings and one of the feelings that I always want to experience every day is to be inspired. And this interview definitely has left me inspired, so I thank you for that. Thank you for your time. And just to repeat, the cell phone is 623-229-8415. They can also follow you on Facebook. I follow you on Facebook. I know you’re an avid traveler just like I am.

Candace: Yeah. I love watching yours too. Yeah, I’ll be on Facebook. It’s boring.

Michelle: Yeah, no, it’s not. You always have fun trips that you’re taking and I love also your love for shoes. You’re always…photos of the shoes that you pack for your trip or new ones that you got. I myself just came back from Europe on Monday and we usually shop at a place about an hour and a half from Jack’s hometown in Germany and it’s an outlet mall. And I’m like, oh my gosh, I couldn’t resist a beautiful pair of Valentinos. No. So now they made it, their journey back to the U.S. with me. So thank you, Candace, so much. This was so enlightening and I hope to have you here on another episode of the “InFLOW” podcast. Thank you so much.

Candace: Okay. Thanks, Michelle.

Michelle: Thank you so much, Candace.

Candace: [inaudible 00:36:04] to Jack. Bye-bye.

Michelle: Yeah, bye-bye.