Episode 47: Female-Centric Brand Building featuring Antonia Saint Dunbar

Michelle: Hi, I’m Michelle Bosch, real estate investor, mom, wife and host of the “InFLOW Podcast.” And I’m passionate about helping women invest in land and apartments. Join me each and every week for real estate investing strategies and interviews with thought leaders that will leave you inspired and ready to step into flow for inflows of cash, inflows of ease and inflows of grace in your life. Now, here on YouTube are the video versions of my podcasts and in order for you to get my latest information, please go ahead and subscribe. And now let’s go.

Welcome to the “InFLOW Podcast.” I’m your host, Michelle Bosch. I’m very excited about my guest today. I have Antonia Saint Dunbar on the show today. She is the co-founder of THINX and Icon. Antonia led the design of the pendant products at THINX that were later named one of “Time Magazine’s” top 25 inventions. And she is currently the co-founder and CEO of a new high tech shoe company, Antonia Saint New York, and The BK Shoe Factory, for which she was able to raise about $1.8 million on Kickstarter. The focus of her companies has been to provide much needed solutions for women and sustainable alternatives for the planet. And I am so excited to have you here. Welcome to the show, Antonia.

Antonia: Thank you so much for having me. I’m delighted to be here as well.

Michelle: Yes. I was so impressed when I was reading…You’re called a feminist genius by the press and nominated to be on the women’s 2.0 list as top founders to watch disrupting a shoe industry of $28 billion. But before I get into that and into inflows of cash and so on, let’s start talking about inflows of creativity. Innovation seems to me in both companies for you has been at the cornerstone of the solutions that you provide to women and as an entrepreneur of course. And how did this whole period underwear idea come about? I was reading your bio and I know you have a background in communications. You are actually a classical challis. And so from that period underwear, like how does that happen?

Antonia: Well, definitely necessity is the mother of all invention. So it was out of a need that these things have come about. But it’s also a product of right timing and the right team. And so my two co-founders and I, we were best friends at the time when we talked about this idea in 2010. And it was just something that we all were passionate about. We all had leaking and staining in our underwear. We all talked about it. We broke the taboo in talking about it, right, found out others had the same problem and we were just like, “Listen, we’ve got to do something about it.” I was very hungry to make something happen. I was very unhappy in the job that I had been doing up in that time.

My two co-founders were busy with their other entrepreneurial projects that they had at the time. And I just I ended up quitting my job and focused on leading the design to the underwear, and with the support of savings, my husband, was able to focus on launching that first Kickstarter video. And then it was really off to the races. But it was like the best timing and the best team and finding the right product that the market at large needs and addressing that problem is something that I’ve done in every business. So, yeah, it hasn’t been easy, but it’s been a wild ride.

Michelle: So from idea to actually, “Oh, my gosh, how do we actually get a prototype? How do we actually get funding? How do I build my team,” like, what were the first things that you guys did? I know there’s three ladies working together. How did you guys divide the work? Like how did that partnership, what magic needed to happen in that partnership in order for this to come about?

Antonia: Well what was amazing was that we all had our own skillsets, right? So I didn’t know that this spark of DNA lived inside of me to design a product, to lead the design of a product. But when I look back to how I grew up, my father was one of the chiefd of design at General Motors. And every time he would take me on these long car rides to my cello lessons, he would be pointing out along the way on the road different things about design that were either good or bad. And we also we were always driving in cars that General Motors had design and he would always get feedback like, “Is that door handle easy to open? Does the windshield wipers really…can you tell that that button is directed to that?”

And I was just through his eyes realizing, “Wow, good design can either make your life better or it can make your life worse.” And so that’s just the gears that just started turn up in my head. Miki, one of my co-founders, had presented me with the idea Radha had had for a stain resistant underwear. And I was like, “Man, yeah, it does need to do that but it also needs to be leak proof. And it also needs to be…if it could be moisture wicking, it should be that too. And if it could be antimicrobial, it’s got to be that too.” And so I just started to really…It was just something inside of me that just came about.

And then I searched high and low for a production partner. I ended up synchronistically sitting next to somebody on an airplane and they were doing production overseas for many different brands. And it was just, again, I bring it back to timing, like the timing and the team and the product, all of it converging into that powerful spark that’s needed to then enter the marketplace and actually get recognition and people pick up the story and are able to tell it to their friends and why they need it and why it works for them. And it’s just it’s sort of like a wildfire. We struck because of all these things coming together and then it coming out into the world.

So I focus a lot on the product operations. Miki was the one when she was done with something she was doing the restaurant, she was the one that was like, “Okay, I’m going to beat the drum. I’m going to tell people about this. I’m going to do the marketing, the PR, like, really be the loud voice behind it.” And so it was really just like all of us coming together. And Radha had that initial spark of the idea. Like she had leaked and she was like, “Oh, my God, why isn’t there stain resistant underwear?” or like, “Why isn’t there a technology in an underwear like that?” So we all added a piece to it, right? And I do find that in any company like now with my shoe company, like it takes the right timing, the right team, the right product. And when you have that recipe, it can be beyond your dreams.

Michelle: Absolutely. The ability to scale comes with these of course. Now so you are no longer at THINX. You’re now doing BK Shoe Factory and Antonia Saint New York. And tell me about that. What makes you want to now get into the shoe industry? Which, by the way, like I was telling you earlier, I am so happy. I’m always mesmerized looking at other women in their beautiful shoes. I’m very pragmatic. So I always go for comfort, which usually doesn’t translate into beautiful shoes. But I definitely do secretly admire them. So what makes you get into shoes?

Antonia: So I had one for THINX, free office space on the very far west side of the city. And it’s actually where we still have our headquarters to this day. And I had to do a 10, 12, 15-minute walk sometimes putting on the shoes that I wore to that space because it all the way, no train went there. And I was like, “My shoes suck. They suck.” And I was down to one pair of shoes that I knew I could depend on that would get me through day and night and they were cute enough. And I had about 50 pairs of shoes in my closet, but that was the only pair I wore and I was very frustrated.

So once again, I started to think, “Okay, how can this be better?” And I started to research that really a lot of these shoe designs like someone like Christian Louboutin, he says, “I don’t even design for the women, I design for the men.” I was like, “These designs need to be reclaimed by us women.” Because I know many feminist, many women love a high heel actually, but they’re incredibly painful. You cannot even stand in them much less walk, okay? So I was like, “I would like to reclaim a classic silhouette heel. And I also would like to reclaim the classic flat.” Flats don’t have a lot of comfort for us either.

So I started to sketch out the idea, started to think about all the pain points that I personally had. And then I ended up finding a shoe maker who was a woman, happened to be a woman in Brooklyn, Keiko, and she has a shoemaking school as well, Brooklyn Shoe space. And I went to her for a class, brought her my idea and then she said, “You know what? I have an industrial designer on my team,” and my father industrial designer as well. So I was like, “Oh, this would be great.” And sharing my idea with them, Rebecca was the industrial designer’s name, she ended up taking those ideas and hand-skiving, I actually have one herem hand-skiving my first insert and addressing all the pain points that I had. And then we made our first ever shoes.

And then I was like, “Okay, now that I know what I want, this shoe is perfect for me, what about the rest of the world?” Like because I don’t know feet like I know periods. Like periods I know but feet? Everyone’s got different feet. So many different types of feet out there. So I ended up consulting with Dr. Suzanne Levine, who is a very well-known pediatric surgeon on the Upper East Side. She deals with very high profile clients. People fly in to see her. She’s incredible what she does. And she helped me realize, “Okay, there’s a couple other things we should add.”

She said, “The sesamoid join right underneath the big toe, there’s a bone.” She has to shave those down for women because they’re pounding on the balls of their feet. And it leads to bone spurs and like major chronic problems with [inaudible 00:10:11] So I have a shoe here, this little divot here where I’ve got a little recessed area for the big toe, she actually helped me think of that. Also a deep heel cup for stability, we need that too to protect our ankles, right? So, anyhow, just consulting with the experts, again, getting the right team, the right masters to get this together. And then I found the right production partners. They’re based in Minnesota, who has a factory network over the world and we made our products together.

I do feel strongly that when it came to the categories of underwear and shoes, typically we had a lot of form and beautiful forms but not a lot of function. Actually no function in the marketplace. Like now you can find things that like Selfridges and Nodstroms. I mean, it’s amazing. We’ve changed the conversation about this and actually addressing it with a real solution for women. Similar to heels, if you look anywhere in the city, like we live in New York City here, women are consistently wearing sneakers with their dresses. They’re wearing…

Michelle: Always have a second pair of shoes to change, yeah?

Antonia: Exactly. Second pair shoes if you’re going out to an event that day and you want to be preventable. But really, I just wanted to take sneaker-like technology and put it into a shoe that had a classic silhouette. And I did that. And I just want more solutions for us women. I’m done with accepting the norm of something is got to be beautiful but not function.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. And I actually wanted to ask you about your focus on the three C’s, which you’ve already started talking about: comfort, construction, and customizing fit. And in customizing fit, I can see how you can disrupt an entire industry because all feet are different. So how are you doing that last C?

Antonia: Yeah. So we have…I don’t know if I have one here in my office. I don’t have one. Oh, no, I do. So I’ll tell you first. So, basically, we found out the orthopedic associations have discovered from dealing with so many feet over time that 60% of us have two different sized feet. No matter like everyone’s feet are different. We even have different feet. I’m one of those people. I have a size eight left foot that’s slightly wider. So I’m like a C width. And then my right foot is a seven and a half B, so a standard width. But I can’t buy two pairs of shoes and make my own pair. And so wouldn’t it be great if we could do that? So really quickly.

Michelle: Sure, no worries.

Antonia: We solved this by disrupting the production model, filament model. So we have a split shoe box. So you’re able to order a separate left and a separate right and make your own customized size. You’ll see when you go to our website, it’s very nontraditional. You select the size, the length, you know, seven and a half, eight, whatever. And then you select the width for the left shoe and then you select the length and the width for the right shoe. And you put it together into your own pair. And having a split shoe box enables us to do that. Also really good production methods. So one thing I do love being here on the planet now is that you can create a different model for things. Just because something has been done historically up until now does not mean that that’s necessarily the best solution. So oftentimes women… 88% of us really don’t know our fit.

Michelle: Yeah, I was gonna say that because right now if I was to go to the website right now because I’m fascinated now, but I do notice that one foot usually a shoe will be tighter than the other and I always attribute, well, that was the sample the floor sample and other people have worn it. But how do I know what to order when I get to the website?

Antonia: Like maybe you might be one of those 60%. But we do have a fit survey on the website that directs you through some questions that can guide your best fit. We have fit specialists on the team here that can talk to you about, “Okay, does one shoe normally give you a blister? Does one shoe normally wobble when you walk? Like put on your shoes and give me some feedback.” We do have fittings in our Long Island City show room where people can come in and get their feet measured. Because honestly, like when is the last time we’ve done that? Probably when we were like 15, maybe.

Michelle: Yeah, a child maybe.

Antonia: Right. And we also do have a good easy exchange in return. So you can try a pair… And we have many women actually say the left fits amazing like a glove but the right is a little tight or it’s a little loose. And they can send us that one shoe back and then we’ll send them a new shoe. So it’s just you kind of figure out through trial and error too like what’s your best size?

Michelle: Yeah, wonderful. So now let me switch a little bit of gears and talk about inflows of cash. So you were able to raise $1.8 million on Kickstarter in just 40 days. And this is for BK Shoe Factory. And…

Antonia: Just for Antonia Saint NewYork.

Michelle: Just for Antonia. Okay. And I always talk about there being when you start a business or investing or whatever it be, you know, no matter of the industry, there’s always complexities of scarcity and complexities of abundance. From an operational standpoint, all of a sudden I’m assuming you are drowning in orders that you need to fulfill. How did you prepare for something like that? I mean, I know you had already under your belt the experience of things, but this is something completely different. It’s shoes. Were you able to bring some of your prior knowledge along or what did you have to improvise or on the go, be spontaneous, be in the flow to try to make things happen?

Antonia: Let me tell you it was a crazy time because just like with THINX, I chose the lucky number of raising $50,000, which is the same number I raised for THINX with my team. And we hit that within a matter of hours. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, what does that mean? This might be bigger than I ever expected.” And it was. I mean, we have found 7,000 people in 40 days from around the world that wanted us to make these shoes. And even though I did have experience having run the previous Kickstarter campaign, setting it up, managing all the customers, doing all the customer service myself, like I definitely knew Kickstarter was confident I could do it again and I did.

However, dealing with shoes is so different than dealing with a stretchy fabric-based product that has lots of give, lots of tolerance, like an underwear. And we also in the end only made I think for 50,000…we made like 64,000 on THINX. So I really only had to at the end of the day make like 1,200 pairs of underwear. I think we committed our first pair minimum was like 3,000 pairs of each style. Okay? But with the high heel, I all of a sudden was faced with making 7,000 pairs of shoes and shoes that I had only prototypes, which is what Kickstarter is great for. You have an idea, you bring it out to the marketplace. You say, “Listen, I’ve got this idea. It works in this one rare form but now I want to bring it out to the masses. Help me do that.”

It was definitely a challenge because people didn’t understand that Kickstarter wasn’t a store. It wasn’t where you come and buy a product and expect it to arrive in two weeks. Like there was definitely some time to fulfill those orders and it was definitely a challenge. And one thing that we learned was fit with shoes is very, very particular. And our technology, we had so much technology built into it. We patented our soft surround system, that’s what is called, where there’s literally cushion on the bottom of your foot, on the tops of your toes, on the side of your foot.

Like when you put it on, it’s like…It’s like so nice. Like I can commute in my heels. I can be in my heels for 12 hours and I’m okay. It’s like unheard of. So anyways, I learned a lot and got a lot of feedback then from 7,000 people who go the heels the first time. So I realized, “You know what? I want to continue to refine this fit and refine the technology.” Because there were things I learned from all these different foot shapes. So we actually spent 2018, anybody who wanted an exchange of a size, we refined the technology and gave them version 2.0 of the shoe when we sent them back a new size.

So normally you do have exchanges with shoes because, again, like we talked about people don’t know their size. That’s standard. You might have 30% returns or whatever. Like Zappos one of the best companies, it has tons of returns, their best customers, 50% returns. No, it’s great, You try on a shoe, you sentd it back if it doesn’t fit, right?

Michelle: Yeah.

Antonia: So, anyways, we learned a lot. And we spent 2018 basically taking all that knowledge and making 2.0 of the shoe, which is amazing.

Michelle: What do you think was the most stressful point and how did you handle that stress as an entrepreneur?

Antonia: The most stressful is managing people’s expectations and keeping them okay to wait was challenging. And some people, they don’t realize it, but if they, let’s say, give up waiting, for an entrepreneur who has this idea and they crowdfunded the ability to bring this idea to market, every time, let’s say, somebody demanded a refund and they’re like, “I don’t wanna wait anymore.” Not only do the money get taken back but then we get hit as an entrepreneur with a $15 fee. So we’ve then now paid $15 for that person to have joined us and we already made the shoe but they’re just not waiting for their refit. So it’s like these huge things that people don’t understand as the consumer that person who’s making the product, you definitely have to have very good financing to be able to have an idea come into the world and sustain itself and meet as many people with the solution that you’ve created as possible.

Because things like that can happen and they’re not connected and things take a long time. Like with tooling for a shoe, just you get a little perspective, it’s kind of like building a car. Like a great piece of it has to be a mold and it’s pressed and it’s like a waffle iron that comes together. It’s like a waffle. Let me show you real quick.

Michelle: I love it.

Antonia: Like you have to make the shoe and it’s very particular. And these are CAD files. Like it’s so complex. So, anyhow, definitely complex of the shoe that was one thing and then managing people and helping them stay patient. I mean, we had a very small team and we continue to have a small team. And there was a time when it took us like way too long to get back to our emails. Like we’d be getting through emails but then more emails daily are coming. And so it could take us several weeks to catch up and that’s just not great.

Michelle: Yeah. It’s not a forgiving industry in terms of like…because of customers waiting. From the moment that they placed the order to the point where they were supposed to receive a shoe, what was the lag time there?

Antonia: For the first time, the first delivery we said we would get it by December by the holidays. And we ended up starting shipping out in February. So that was just a couple months and then we missed the holiday, which is tough. And then our next delivery, like the real launch of version 2.0 was just this year in April. So people had to wait that again to get their refit. So it’s definitely people don’t realize how hard it is starting a business and all the complexities that go into it.

Michelle: Now we all do it and we’re all after freedom of time, money, relationships, purpose at the end and wanting to solve a problem in the market. How did you grow up around money and finances and what does money mean to you?

Antonia: I am grateful that I have such a great partner in my husband. His name is Obed and he actually is the unsung hero behind the curtain of THINX because he was our first CFO and our first investor and actually my co-founder for the shoe company, Antonio Saint New York, and he’s also our CFO. And he was trained on Wall Street. He has an incredible financial mind and it’s through him that I really got my financial training and it’s through him that I was able to forecast product demand and runway and all of these things in valuation of a company.

But before him, I mean, listen, I was raised to be a classical cellist. Like I did not get this training. I did not at all. And with THINX I learned a lot from Miki my co-founder who got…I think she took like a yearlong course or something like that to study like investment banking. And she was an investment banker like I think the first, I don’t know, couple years once she graduated from school. So my parents I learned from them what not to do. I learned like how important it is to save, how important it is not to fall in love with everything in a store and buy it all at once like a great mother would do. Like I learned not to do. And I and I do think that spending money on experiences and not just things really adds to your long-term happiness. Like too many possessions is actually very complicated and complicating for your life. So I guess I had…College came later in life and having a company.

Michelle: And now going forward, you’ve brought two companies now to a relatively high level of success. How are you looking now into the future to invest your money? Like what do you look for in an investment? And when I say investment, it means, “Okay, I’ve produced cash here. This has been my cash machine. And now I’m going to park some of this cash someplace else that is going to start producing some cash flow for me.” Like what do you look for in an investment in going forward? What are the plans?

Antonia: So once again, I do lean on my husband for that because… A little additional bit of history on him. He actually went to medical school. And he got trained to be a doctor but he ended up helping one of the doctors he was working with launch a biotech. And then that’s when his biotech Aquaman went in. And so he actually trades on Wall Street in biotech companies. And he analyzes if a drug is going to work or if this medical device is going to work and he makes very educated bets on them.

And so he invests our money in that way. And I highly recommend if you have a family office or are linked with someone that just is knowing whatever market it is that you want to invest in, that’s a great way to do it. I personally am passionate about things that are environmentally based, that have an impact on the environment. So I’m definitely I’m always listening for those kinds of opportunities. And really my main investment is my shoe company. [crosstalk 00:26:04]

Michelle: And there’s nothing wrong with that with basically reinvesting into the business for future growth because sometimes that could be your best bet in terms of being able to weather any storm in the economy. You know what I mean? Because like in the real estate business, we are talking about a recession here, not too very far future and how will that affect our $10 to $15 million purchase as we invest in large apartments and how is that going to go down? And how are we going to prepare from a long-term debt and being able to serve as our investors and produce returns for them and so on? So, yeah.

And sometimes the best bet is your business. And we’re like, “Okay, well, if we’re buying an asset because each of these apartments are like a little business that we know that we can manage very efficiently, that we know that we can Increase rents, regardless of what’s happening in the economy, we’re going to be okay.” And we continue reinvesting into that one asset, getting a new roof or a better landscape or grounds, renovating the interiors. And we pour it back out into the asset versus taking the money out and giving distributions, excessive distributions to investors and so on and so forth. So we do the same in essence.

Antonia: Yeah, we’re focused on… We have new styles coming out. We have a flat that I’m loving. [inaudible 00:27:37] is another one. And so women need their flats, they need their heels, we’ve got other styles and it’s a sustainable product. One of our three C’s is construction that they’re made very well. You buy fewer things, better things is the goal. Same with THINX. Every woman disposes 17,000 pads or tampons in her lifetime. So these underwear are washable and reusable. And you really just can use that on certain days. So I like to invest again in the growth and the iteration and evolution of the product. I’m actually very excited and very engaged. We’re a DTC brand. We’re speaking with the world and selling products all around the world. So there’s definitely lots of opportunity here just like with your apartments focusing on the products.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Another thing when you just said right now about iterations and so on, one of my biggest fears is like unfulfilled potential and whether an entrepreneur or an investor, what is the one action you think people can take to get to their goals, to their dreams, to the next iteration of whatever that next level is for them either in the investing? For you it’s product design or what’s the best thing? What is one action people can take or a woman can take that is perhaps, you know, riddled by self-doubt, lack of confidence?

Antonia: I think one thing that helps is getting out of your own head. And as entrepreneurs, it can be very isolating or as investors, whatever it is you’re doing like on your own. And if you can get with another group of like-minded women, it’s so helpful to keep you on track, to keep you inspired, to keep you feeling supported and not in your head. Because worry and fear, it’s like the rocking chair that brings you nowhere. Like you just have to get out of that. And some days, it’s very hard. Like women we have hormones. We have these emotional ebbs and flows.

So how do you get through those valleys and keep going? One thing that really is helpful is just try and do something productive every day. Like even if it’s just that one email. Like maybe you’re having such a bad day, just do that one email. And what I find is that when you do that one little action, it inspires you then to do the second little action.

Michelle: I know.

Antonia: And you get into this flow of, “Okay, now I can keep going and now I’m out of my head and I’m into movement.” Because the universe wants to keep us moving. So…

Michelle: This is like so perfect, Antonia. Yes. This is so perfect.

Antonia: The natural flow of things, literally.

Michelle: Yeah. Now, I know and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I think you’re a mother of two girls, right?

Antonia: I am.

Michelle: And how do you incorporate…So you’re an entrepreneur here trying to figure out what’s the next level of growth for your business. You are also a wife, a mom, you guys work together. My husband and I we also work together. We have completely different skillsets as well. And that’s kind of how that works. But how do you incorporate faith and grace in your life? Like how do you bring ease on a daily basis? Any rituals that ground you so that you and hubby do not kill each other at work and can be kind to the most important people in your life when you come home and help them out with homework and so on and so forth? What do you do?

Antonia: Definitely, that is a key to it all. And I think it’s great when people talk about what works for them because oftentimes there is an anchoring foundational set of habits that makes people be able to be productive in the world. So for me, now that I have two girls, I have to wake up much earlier than I ever thought I could. And so I’m pretty much like 5:45, 6:00 a.m. I claim that first hour of the day for myself. And first thing I do is I get up and I go downstairs in front of my altar and I meditate. And I got trained in Kundalini Yoga, actually in 2008 to teach and I just use it for my own practice. And I do different [inaudible 00:31:55], different breathing things, different meditations depending on my inspiration.

And normally I keep one for like 120 days or maybe a year or shorte or whatever. Kundalini is pretty cool. Like you can pick ,like, “I want to work on manifesting abundance. So I’m going to do like this heart prayer.” Like there’s all sorts of amazing things in Kundalini yoga. Anyhow, I pick that and then right now I’m just doing about 20 minutes. And for me, that’s what I can do and I have to be okay with that. Like, ideally, I would love to do 40. But right now I can’t, or an hour and a half. But right now I can’t. So I do that. And then I do go up. I have one cup of coffee. That’s how I start my day.

And then I do then check my email and then social media because I have to do that also for work too and a couple other projects I’m working on on the side. So that foundation is so important to my day. And then I also I end my day at 5:00 and I get home to my kids and I’m consistent with them. I’m still nursing so I want to keep my milk supply up and I want to have that cozy, cuddly time, which I think is so awesome. And it really bonds me with my kids. We’re super close, just like I was with my mom. I mean, I have such great memories with my mom and close to my mom. And I just set those boundaries. Of course there are times I do go out and I do certain things for work and things. But I pretty much for now… I mean, they’re three years old and 15 months. So…

Michelle: Oh, yeah. And in that timeframe, they’re really teachers of presence where you’have to connect and really be there because…

Antonia: They could fall over and hurt themselves or just [inaudible 00:33:40] because you’re not paying attention to them. Yeah. They teach so much. They are my teachers every single day. So definitely that. And then also one thing I think more women do need to talk about and realize is that I am here right now even with you because I do have help and a caregiver at home. I don’t have family here.

Michelle: Support.

Antonia: Yeah. And if it wasn’t for a caregiving team, right, that makes it happen… I mean, children are supposed to be raised by their aunties and their grandma and their whatever. Like that’s family, the friends that are nearby. And so if you don’t have all of those people close by then, yes, a caregiver, having someone, having a daycare, whatever you need to, you need that. So you can’t do it all alone. Different team, again, makes things possible.

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. What would be one final piece of advice for women either starting out or that are already successful?

Antonia: One piece of advice for women that are already starting out or already successful. Gosh, you know what? This is what came to me intuitively so I’ll just share it. It’s kind of deep though. I feel like on this planet at this time, we need more mama bears. And women with or without children, we’re all mama bears, to take this human life and use it to its utmost potential. And help in whatever ways you can in your community and whatever ideas come to you and to the way of how you can serve and try and be as clear and open and grounded of a vessel as you can to be able to do the work that this planet needs you to do.

And so for me, I mean, with the exception of that one cup of coffee, this is what you got. And like this is what I work with. And I just think that the more we can serve in that way, like a clear, grounded, present peaceful way, the more we can really change this planet for the better. Because I will tell you, the women are being called right now. Like they are being called and we need to set the ship right because we’ve gotten out of balance. Look, they took our underwear away, they took her high heels away, we’re bringing it all back. That’s just one little example. But you know what? [inaudible 00:36:01]

Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Antonia: Like even they’ve tried to control how we give birth. Like they’ve just been doing so many things, this whole patriarchal imbalance. We got to bring it back in balance and us women need to help each other do that.

Michelle: It’s up to us. Support each other. Absolutely. And how can anyone listening right now support you, help you, and how can we go and start shopping?

Antonia: Yes, absolutely. The website for the shoes is antoniasaintny.com. You can find me on Instagram, Antonia Saint Dunbar. And if you write to us through the website, we will totally hook you guys up with a special discount code for this podcast. I just thought of that spontaneously right now.

Michelle: Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you. Any last words? Anything else that perhaps you thought “Oh, you know, I wish I would have said that or…”

Antonia: I’m sure that’s going to come to me afterward. We have to listen to our intuition more. If there’s something burning us up inside that we’re like, “Oh, my God, this is killing me, like I really want to do this,” whatever this is [crosstalk 00:37:12.568]

Michelle: This deep yearning of the heart and that we kind of like suppress and like go. Like, for me, it’s incredibly in a completely different way useful in that sometimes a property acquisition checks out and we’re like, all excited, we’re going to be making X and x returns, and then we walk the property, and I kind of say like the property speaks to me, and I’m like, “No, even though it looks good on paper, I think that this would be a bad investment.” And those whispers that you need to listen to, whether it’d be to make a decision on where you’re going to invest your money or a new thing that you’re about to start, a new venture, a new company, or a new project that you’re excited about, we need to listen to that. Yeah, absolutely.

Antonia: Yes. You have to listen to intuition. And if it’s like taking a class or doing something outside of your comfort zone or something that just one little step in the direction of fulfilling that idea for you just do it. This life is so precious.

Michelle: Perfect. I love this. Thank you so much Antonia for a wonderful, almost 45 minutes. And I’m excited. I can’t wait to get on the website and try it out and I’ll let you know how it fit.

Antonia: Awesome. We look forward to getting on your feet.

Michelle: Thank you so much. It’s been an honor having you. Please take care and thank you and until the next time.

Antonia: Thank you so much, love. Take care too.

Michelle: Bye-bye.

Antonia: Good bye.

Michelle: I hope this episode left you feeling inspired and ready to get inflows of cash, inflows of life, and inflows of faith in your life. I welcome your reviews on iTunes. Please leave me a review and help me create an amazing community of women in flow. Thank you as always for sharing your voice by going to michellebosch.com and joining the conversation about this show. And while you’re there, grab a copy of my “Ten Commandments to Living a Life in Flow.” You can also follow me on Facebook, @Michelle Bosch, and on Instagram, @MichelleBoschOfficial. Thank you very much and until the next one.